If it is OK with the group, we will cover more pages of reading, (chapters 10-18) for this week. That way we can move ahead quicker in our discoveries in this novel. I bet Ray has already past these chapters :) Your comments are due Monday, September 5.
Chapter 10
One of the most creative writing inventions Pamuk employes in My Name is Red is to write chapters of the story from the point of view of inanimate objects. In chapter 10 "I am a Tree", Pamuk explores what a tree from an illuminated page has to think and say. The image of the tree has been separated from it's book and is now alone.
Do you think this has caused the tree to lose or to expand it's meaning?
Chapter 11
Black meets Master Osman and they discussed how the Venetian style differs from the Islamic illuminations. They also talk about how the Islamic illuminations are changing.
Can you list a couple of those changes?
Black asks Master Osman what "separates the genuine miniaturist from the ordinary" (p.60)
Master Osman replies that to determine this, he would ask a painter three questions. Black is going to use those questions to interrogate the miniaturists to help him identify Elegant's murderer.
What are those questions?
There is an important discussion in this chapter about blindness. Master Osman tells Black that "blindness is silence" and "it's the farthest one can go in illustrating: it is seeing what appears out of Allah's own blackness." (p 60) In chapter 14 (p80) Pamuk tells us that an artist that is blind paints by memory and is not distracted by the world.
Do you think blindness would make an artist better? Answer this question after you have reviewed the following 2 outside sources:
1) A video about a remarkable blind painter from Turkey.....Esref Armagan
http://www.armagan.com/
2) The story of a painter, Benodebehari Mukherjee, helps us explore the concept of whether blindness is a virtue and can make an artist better
http://humanitiesunderground.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/the-blind-art-of-the-concrete/
Some of the artwork of Mr. Mukherjee can be viewed here:
http://www.artfact.com/artist/mukherjee-benode-behari-jsudm51tks
Chapters 12, 13, 14
In these chapters, Black visits the three miniaturists (Butterfly, Stork and Olive) and poses the questions Master Osman has suggested. He uses the questions as a ploy to observe the painters to pick up any signs of guilt of Elegant's murder. All three miniaturists are on to Black's motive for visiting them.
Butterfly answers Black's question about style and signature. He also boasts he is the best painter because he earns the most money (p68) and also that he didn't murder Elegant ( 66). But he also says he feels like lowering an inkpot onto the skull of this buffoon Black for suspecting him of Elegant's murder.
Stork answers Black's question about painting and time. Stork tells Black a tale with the moral that "time ends for the one who forsakes the perfect life and perfect illuminating leaving nothing but death." (p75)
Olive answers Black's question about blindness and memory. One of Olive's stories (p79) reveals some of the "eternal anxieties about going blind shared by all miniaturists."
Can you list some of these anxieties and the conditions that caused these anxieties?
Chapter 15
In this chapter Esther heightens the drama of the love triangle between Shekure, Black and Hasan.
How does Esther stir things up?
In this male dominated society, it would appear that a women holds power over men the most when she is desirable for marriage.
Do you think this might be a reason Shekure is playing Black and Hasan against each other?
Chapter 16
We learn more about Shekure's thnking. She tells us: "It wasn't aging, losing one's beauty or even being bereft of usband and money that was the worst of all calamities. (p87)
What does Shejkure is more horrible?
Enishte is afraid Shekure will divorce, remarry and abandon him. He is also afraid he too will be murdered.
Chapter 17
Enishte goes to Elegant's funeral with the knowledge that Elegant's murder is present there.
At the funeral he talks with Olive, Stork and Butterfly. He recalls Stork criticizing Elegant's gilding work as being inferior (p92). He notes that Olive was the "one who most believed in my book. (p92). He has a fiery discussion with Butterfly in which Butterfly accuses Olive and Stork with starting rumors that he is the murderer because he had bad relations with Elegant. (p93) Looking into Elegant's grave Enishte again fears his own demise.
Why do you think Enishte tells Butterfly to let the others know that he is calling off the project of the secret book?
At this point in the story, who do you think the murder is?
Resources for optional discovery
An interesting history of gold coins:
http://www.nationalcoinbrokers.com/rarecoins/gold-in-your-ira/history-of-gold-coins/
Author Pamuk describes some of the paintings referred to in "My Name is Red"
http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/authors/pamuk/desktop1.html
16 comments:
The next chapters sound interesting. I better get to reading them so I don't lag behind the group. You are right, Jan, Ray has already read ahead to Chapter 25. He will have to go back and reread the chapters so he can answer some of the questions that have been posted.
Better get crackin' Jackie. You married an overachiever :)
I'm reading it now. Ray reads on the Kindle and I am reading on the Kindle for PC. : )
Ray answer to this question.
Do you think this has caused the tree to lose or to expand it's meaning?
Expand it's meaning. Now the tree is describing people and events. The tree suddenly has morals talking about coffee being a sin, a vice. Usually we don't ask for the opinions of trees. If so I believe that a human would think that there is a jinn wreaking havoc within the tree.
How are the Islamic illuminations changing.
Can you list a couple of those changes?
Islamic illuminations are changing because the masters were no longer working in the workshops but they were doing the work from home. Also the pictures were being sold as individual pieces rather than being kept together in the book as an illustration to the story that was being told. In addition some illuminations were being done in black and white instead of being colored so they could be done quicker and sold quicker for a profit.
Excellent comment Ray. We don't often ask for the opinion of trees--but, maybe we should! I love the chapters that Pamuk writes from the "objects" perspective. My favorite is the chapter written by the GOLD COIN. I wonder what the Dunkin Donuts coffee would have to say?!?!?!
Good reading Jackie. Even though you are quickly reading to catch up, you are gleaning the important parts. Smart lady :)
Now that I have discovered that some of the chapters have the same title I wonder how the book would read if one would read all the same title chapters one after the other instead of reading them in chapter order? This is coming from a person who will sometimes read the ending of a book before she reads all the chapters. I haven't done that in the reading of this book. And I won't!
Jackie: This is so funny. I often read books back to front as well as I am more interested in the way the writer poses the story than the outcome. It never bothers me to "spoil" a book by seeing the movie first for vice versa. I am not, however, as you are not, going to skip to the end on this one either :)
I like your idea about going back and reading the chapters by the same titles -- I think I will do that for those written by Black and see if I discover hidden clues or patterns. Thanks for this excellent suggestion!
Jan, you are welcome. It is fun to read the same book with other people that are interested in discussing it. So far neither Ray or I have discovered who the murder is. Do you think it is one of the minaturists, Butterfly, Stork, or Olive. I got suspicious when Butterfly said says "...he feels like lowering an inkpot onto the skull of this buffoon Black for suspecting him of Elegant's murder."
Jackie: I thought the same thing when I read that Butterfly said that about Black. Well, Black has been charged with finding the murderer and the 3 miniaturists are said to be the chief suspects. There are other characters in this novel however, it might be one of them!!!!! I am looking for clues. Once you finish the chapters for this week, be sure to watch the video on the Turkish artist that is blind. I think that blindness will be an important aspect to this story.
I am enjoying reading along with you and Ray too. SilverHoody may not continue. She finds this book difficult reading. But then again, she may surprise us. The more the merrier!
I hope that SilverHoody will surprise us. I also had some trouble reading some of the chapters. I found the I am Olive one particularly difficult to read. I have to admit that I sort of just skimmed over it because I couldn't seem to concentrate on it at all. I may go back and read that chapter again after I read the rest of the chapters for this week. I have learned, after many years, that it is sometimes better to move on instead of getting bogged down on the things we can't seem to grasp, and then go back to the difficult part later when your mind is more refreshed. Okay, I better get to reading. I will be sure to watch the video too.
Do you think blindness would make an artist better? Answer this question after you have reviewed the following 2 outside sources:
I think it depends on the artist. As one of the characters in the book mentioned a true artist is not stopped by anything that is exterior to the artist because the desire to persue the art is stronger than anything else. I think that a true artist will contine his or her work no matter if he is blind or if he or she can see.
Rays says that there is a driving force within the artist or creative person that on one can take away, not even the fact that the artist is blind. It is something that comes from within and it has nothing to do with eyesight, smell, taste, it is just there within the person.
Blindness could remove distractions, but the person could just put on a blindfold to acheive that same effect, without actually blinding himself, which is rather drastic.
Ray says the Edipous Rex method fell out of favor over 3000 years ago. Not only that, but blinding yourself hurt anyway.
I am with you Ray on this one... blinding oneself seems to be a drastic measure for sure. I like the blindfold idea much better! I tend to think going as far as blinding oneself is an obsessive reaction for sure. However, if the culture admires someone who sacrifices their eyes in order to "see" better and become a superior artist, I can understand a little better how someone would be influenced into considering it.
Jackie: I too got bogged down on the amount of detail, history and fable that Pamuk puts into his chapters. This is definitely not easy reading, but that will make the completion of this book an admirable achievement. I hope the end of the book pays off for all the trudging we are doing to get there :)
Especially since taking time out to contemplate the questions and form an answer to them takes time, but it also makes the reading more enjoyable, for me anyway. So I will keep trudging along.
We learn more about Shekure's thnking. She tells us: "It wasn't aging, losing one's beauty or even being bereft of usband and money that was the worst of all calamities. (p87)
What does Shejkure is more horrible?
I'm lagging behind a little but I have now caught up and will start reading Chap. 19 - 29. I discovered that Shekure thinks that having no one to envy her is a more terrible calamity then all the rest she mentioned. I find that strange since I find it very uncomfortable to be envied by anyone for anything. I would never wish to be envied by anyone.
I have read up to Chap. 30 and I still don't know who the murderer is. I will go back and look for clues. Do you think it is one of the 3 miniturists, Stork, Olive, or Butterfly? Could it be Hasan? Who else is a suspect?
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